asato_muraki | Five Things Meme Continued #5 Religion

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Five Things Meme Continued #5 Religion

This is a thorny, twisty subject for me, so I put off posting about it. I've given the topic a lot of thought over the years. My views are still evolving, but here is what I think, in a nutshell:

1. Religions come about as a means to improve ourselves, to achieve a sort of connectedness with something larger than ourselves or with each other. Usually, the systems we refer to as "major religions" (as opposed to tribal belief systems or cultural superstitions and mythologies -- I think this is an arbitrary distinction, but one most people make) spring up around individuals whose lives or words profoundly affect those around them. The teachings of these individuals are written and codified, at which point they start to become legalistic. Social and cultural interpretations vary on the teachings, and people become more concerned with behavioral minutia than with the more internal, spiritual distinctions.

2. I think true religion (of whatever flavor) is something that happens inside an individual. It is indescribably and lovely, but also somewhat variable and progressive. I believe that most religious teachings arise from people experiencing this, and trying to explain it to others -- a process that never fully succeeds. Moses or Christ or the Buddha certainly did their best, and I imagine some folks "got it" while others didn't (even though they thought they did).

The thing that stands out to me about religion, is that I have heard people from different religions describe the same experience. What a Christian describes as "living in the center of God's will, in a place of perfect love" seems to me to be very similar to the Oneness with the Universe described in the Vedic tradition, enlightenment in Buddhism, and so on. I tend to see it as people trying to describe the same thing from different vantage points.

I have known people from many different religions who have this love in their hearts for their fellow men. Most of my life experience is with Christians, and I have encountered more than one Christian whose presence was like cool water, who gave the impression of being very accepting and loving and very much in the moment. In all my time in Christian education, I met one -- a fellow student at King College named Rebecca, who cheerfully failed every time our fellows tested her skill at being judgmental. *g*

I remember when another friend at school chastised me for hanging with the theater crowd, the weird intellectuals and various delightfully androgynous fellows. I will never forget what she said to me, because the words she spoke sounded alien in her mouth. I knew she was repeating something she'd been told by a youth minister, or someone in fellowship group.

She said, "God has called us to have a spotless reputation."

"I gaped for a moment, startled by how ridiculous a statement that was. "God has called us to do something Jesus Himself never managed?" I did not add that I thought that was one of the stupidest things I'd ever heard, but I'm sure she inferred that from my giggles.

3. My bottom line is that doing what is really right and following the lead of the spirit is actually more likely to get you a bad reputation among religious communities than not. Why? Because true religion -- whatever form that may take -- challenges prejudice. It upsets the apple cart, and turns over the money-changers' tables. The spirit knows the difference between what is right and true and what is merely habitual or "customary."

Sometimes that is a dangerous, even revolutionary, thing. Sometimes it's not. But whatever it actually is, that is what I aspire to.

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Interesting. I find myself agreeing with everything you said, especially about the "reputation" thing *giggles with you*.

I would say the difference between a major religion and anything else is that it has lasted beyond the death(s) of its original leaders and it has transcended the culture it started in. My two cents.

Yes, and one major reason they lasted beyond the original leaders is the fact that their teachings (or the teachings of those who followed them) have been written down. I think religious beliefs evolve more easily without established parameters (which the written works provide). Not that it doesn't happen, anyway, but I'm guessing that it works much the same way as the evolution of language happens a tad slower when the speakers also read and write.

Far more articulate than I could manage on the subject! I found myself agreeing with what you said. :)
And oh my! You're friend in school *giggles* at her comment.

She was a very sweet girl, and a good friend, but for whatever reason, I am completely incapable of seeing logic in that statement.

I don't actually know you (just acquainted with you via narniadear) but I just wanted to throw my two cents in. I agree with what you're saying overall. I just would clarify a few things. What you say about formalized religion is a potential result, but I think the purpose of these certainly isn't to end up there. I think that people are, like you said, searching for ways to improve themselves (as well as philosophies around which they can structure their lives) and they find certain things that work. Religions are indeed a codifying of certain procedures as well as beliefs, but you could say that they are created simply as a filter. Like searching for a certain group on LJ, you form an organized religion to be able to have a community of people who all use the same means of bettering themselves and who's philosophies agree with your own. The problems with organized religion, as with most things, come not from the religion itself in most cases, but from the flaws of those who practice it.
And I'd just like to say one thing for your friend. I think she might simply have misunderstood a very good idea (of course, she also might have understood a stupid idea perfectly...who's to say) When I hear that sentence, as well as your commentary that she has been called to do something that Christ didn't even do I think there could be an alternative interpretation. I see what you mean, but at the same time, anyone who actually knew Christ didn't think that he would become a fallen man by speaking with a prostitute. What I think that sentance could have meant is that God has called us to have a perfect reputation as Christians. Now, obviously your friend misinterpredted it when she used it as an injunction to stay away from the more flavorful people in your school. But if you think of Christ's reputation of goodness, that sentence, which might very well have been spoken by a minister, begins to make a little more sense. Just a thought...

Well, a person's "reputation" very, very seldom refers to what people who know you think of you. It very often refers to appearances, and judgments passed by those who only know what they see (He keeps the company of prostitutes!). Based on that, I'd have to disagree and stand by my assessment that the statement we are discussing is probably stupid, or at the very least dangerously misleading. Individual Mileage May Vary, of course. ;)

Fair enough. I'll grant you that if whoever said it first (the minister him or her self, or the girl misquoting him/her) meant my what I said they certainly didn't express themselves at all effectively :)

I'm sorry. It occurs to me that that probably sounded rude, though I didn't mean it that way. I've said before that I tend to get very rational and detached when I discuss something I think of as important, and Religion is one of those things. :)

I truly, deeply respect the religious beliefs of others, and I did not in any way mean to give offense. There are certainly good reasons why organized religions seek to control the behavior of their adherents, and most of them are good reasons. That said, a person may well have a spotless reputation and be anything but spotless in their private souls. (Think of all the pedophile priests (or other leaders) who have been protected from the consequences of their sins by organizations more interested in the reputation of their religion than the well-being of innocents.) If I had to choose, I'd rather have a horrible reputation and a clean conscience. Luckily, that is not often what choices boil down to, but the truth of who a person is -- the condition of their soul -- is between that person and God.

We all have the right to choose our friends, and I have had to end some friendships because the person's choices and demeanor were simply to damaging to me or my family. But I still wish them well. I try not to judge people who have had such different journeys than I have had,, but I avoid them if they are poisonous to me and mine. So I totally get why not hanging out with crackheads is a good idea. ;)

And why religious communities have so much importance in most of our lives, and how that culture affects our behavior. It's just that doing all the right things on the outside can cover a multitude of sins, and I don't hold myself equipped to pass judgment (on the condition of a soul -- I'm perfectly capable of passing a judgment on whether or not I should have a particular in my and my children's lives.

So, if you feel uncomfortable with my beliefs or the way I talk about stuff (or the fact that I have written erotic short stories for money! eep!) I won't be mad at you if you want to reconsider friending me. I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone's journey, religious or otherwise.

But if you choose to stick around, I will not try to convert or convince you of anything. Promise. I do like discussing beliefs and things with people, but I do it to learn, not to *show other people the light of my , *cough* wisdom.* I would never intentionally hurt people's feelings (not that it doesn't happen by accident sometimes-- I'm socially clumsy that way) and I will always, always respect your right to believe what you believe. That is very important to me.

Oh shoot! Did I sound offended! Blast! I'm actually just like you. I get analytical, cold, and distant when I talk about anything sensitive and/or important. I didn't think you were rude at all. Very non-rude and accepting. I was just spewing my thoughts which were not offended in the least...I vote we just accept that both of us are very not easily offended and go from there or we could keep up the apologizing for ever!

As for your thoughts on reputations, I 100% concur with pretty much everything you said about screwing reputations as relates to hypocrisy. What I meant really was just that the generic reputation of Christ, as known today is one of goodness. Not his reputation back then, but now. If I say to you that Christ spoke with prostitutes and lepers you know that he must have been doing something good. Having a perfect reputation (I insert the words "like Christ's) would mean that if Cecily tells you that I'M talking with prostitutes and lepers you also think I must be doing something good as well :D

And I didn't know you made a living writing tarty stories...is that a current job or a past one? How exciting that must be for you! I'm sorry, that sounded sarcastic but it was meant to be funny. I think I'll quit while I might still be ahead

Fabulous! I shall, from here on out, assume we are both slightly awkward people of good will! ;) You didn't actually sound offended -- I just re-read my answer and decided that might sound offensive in itself. (I was really going for a joking type of thing, but sometimes I miss that by a wide margin, and I never can tell when.)

Oh! I see what you were getting at, then. Certainly Christ's current reputation is vastly superior to his former one! I would most certainly assume that any truck you had with prostitutes and lepers would be on the up-and-up. ;)

I don't make a living at writing yet, but I have accepted pay for a very naughty story recently published in a very naughty anthology. It was my first fiction-words-for-money transaction. (I do sometimes get paid for copy editing and such.) I had a friend in a writing group who was always telling us about calls for submissions to various markets, and I'd think of a story but then never write it and miss the deadline.(These were all scifi/fantasy markets.) Then I made a solemn vow to myself -- that no matter what it was, I would write a story for the very next market that presented itself to me, and submit that story by the deadline. Even if it was complete crap. Of course, a couple days later another friend (who never posts calls for submissions) posted a call for stories to go in an anthology of (homo)erotic abduction and captivity stories. Despite being so far out of that particular loop that I don't even know its zip code, I gave it go and my story was accepted. I'm actually kind of proud of how well it turned out.

But, really, I want to write novels -- adventure and mystery, with maybe a tad of romance thrown in for spice. :D Not that I'm at all ashamed of the hot smexing, I'm just more interested in writing stories that blend genre with romantic undertones.

I seem to be meeting all kinds of people lately with writing ambitions. Me too :)
I don't think I could have done the homoerotic abduction stuff. I think I MIGHT have spontaneously combusted.

"Slightly awkward people of good will" I think I'm going to go and write that in the "about me" section

I would have combusted at the thought at your age, honey. I'm just old now and very hard to shock. ;) Besides, I love a challenge.

We should start a club--SAPOGW. *snerk*

perhaps list it as an interest here? set up a little competition for those dang fluffy bunnies?

We totally should! Our own little Internet niche. heheheheheh

I enjoyed this post.

Peace be with you!

And also with you!

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Five Things Meme Continued #5 Religion

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